Original Sin Extra Dry

Review of Original Sin’s newest cider, Extra Dry, from York, New York.  It launched last month.  This is their first canned cider (previously most of their ciders were sold in six packs of 12oz bottles, and a couple special releases in 750ml bottles) and celebrates their 20th! anniversary.  I’ve previously tried their Cherry Tree, Elderberry, Pear and Northern Spy ciders.

>This is a review of a sample can provided to Cider Says by Original Sin.  Although I will take care to treat it the same as any other review, there is always the potential for bias as I received it for free.  The only consideration I knowingly made was pushing this up in my cider review cue.  I love free stuff, especially cider!  Want your cider or cider-related product reviewed here?  Contact me.<<

Cider:  Extra Dry
Cidery:  Original Sin
Cidery Location:  York NY
ABV:  5.5%
How Supplied:  four pack of 16oz cans
Style:  American sessionable canned craft cider made from dessert apples

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Availability:  Currently sold year round in FL, IL, MD, NC, OH, PA, and WA D.C.  In April it will launch nationally to more than 30 states (everywhere its ciders are currently distributed).

Cider Description:  Original Sin Extra Dry Cider contains a distinct blend of New York apples including Ida Red, MacIntosh, Cortland, and several russeted apples. The cider is complex, balanced, and sessionable with a minimal level of residual sugar.

Made from 100% fresh pressed New York apples, champagne yeast, and nothing else.  Their suggested pairings are ripe camembert, roasted oysters, and anything else you might enjoy on a back patio.

Cidery Description:  Established in 1996, Original Sin is one of the original modern-day U.S. cider companies. With a mere $5,000 in funding, founder Gidon Coll began making cider in Upstate New York and spent two years going bar to bar in New York City to develop his early market base. Today, Original Sin is still 100% independent and now distributed in 32 U.S. States, The United Kingdom, Hong Kong and Japan.

Original Sin started a New York State test orchard five years ago, which now features over 100 rare, cider and contemporary apple varieties. Each year, the company adds interesting and historically significant varieties to the Original Sin orchard’s genetic pool.

Price:  n/a (suggested retail price of $10.49 / 4 cans)
Where Bought:  n/a
Where Drank:  home
How Found:  I had read about this release online.  The founder of Original Sin, Gidon Coll, e-mailed and asked if he could send a sample, and I never turn down free cider…

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First Impression:  Pale straw yellow hue.  Moderate carbonation with tiny bubbles upon pouring, which quickly dissipated.  Smells dry, of tart green apples, yeast, and citrus.

Tasting Notes:  Dry.  High acidity.  Mild tartness.  Mild astringent tannins.  Hints of bitterness and sourness.  Light bodied.  Low carbonation.  Notes of juicy apple to start, then citrus, and hints of green apple, floral (I think I taste a hint of lavender of all things?), mineral, and yeast.  Moderate length finish.  Mild apple flavor.  Moderate sessionability.

My Opinion:  Enjoyable, although its not something I’d usually drink (I go more for full flavored then sessionable ciders).  It seems more flavorful than many sessionable ciders.  I think I’ve got more accustomed to dry ciders, as even 6 months ago I wouldn’t have liked a cider this dry.

Most Similar to:  Ace Joker (although this cider has more apple flavor), Farnum Hill Extra Dry (although this cider is less tannic and less bitter), and Alpenfire Pirate’s Plank (although this cider is less tannic and sweeter).

Closing Notes:   This probably ties with their Northern Spy for my favorite Original Sin cider so far.  I usually go for sweeter ciders, but it won me over.  Thankfully I have a second can to drink as well.

Have you tried Original Sin Extra Dry?  What did you think?

Woodchuck Private Reserve Barrel Select

Review of Woodchuck Barrel Select, one of their three current Private Reserve ciders (along with Pink and Pumpkin).

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Cider:  Private Reserve Barrel Select
Cidery:  Woodchuck
Cidery Location:  Middlebury VT
ABV:  6.9%
How Supplied:  six pack of 12oz bottles
Style:  American commercial bourbon barrel aged cider

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Availability:  Wide release, Nov-Feb.  Winter Chill, one of their three current seasonal ciders, is also sold during that same time of year.

Cider Description:  Private Reserve Barrel Select is aged in small batches to bring out balanced hints of bourbon over a crisp apple backdrop. The cider is aged for six months in genuine white oak Kentucky Bourbon barrels. The barrels impart a copper hue on the cider as well as gentle notes of oak, vanilla, and whiskey. A truly rare cider which proves that patience is indeed a virtue.

Cidery Description:  Here at the Woodchuck Cidery in Vermont, we handcraft every batch of Woodchuck Hard Cider. Our Cider Makers utilize the highest quality ingredients and meticulously oversee each small batch from start to finish. We reinvigorated American cider in 1991 and continue to lead the category through our commitment to craft innovative and refreshing hard ciders.

Price:  ~$2 for a single bottle (runs $9-$11 a six pack)
Where Bought:  Total Wine
Where Drank:  home
How Found:  I’ve bought this cider the last couple years when it came out, along with Winter Chill, as I love barrel aged cider.

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First Impression:  Deep copper caramel amber (note that although barrel aging imparts color, they also list “caramel color” on the ingredient list).  A few medium sized bubbles and some foam upon pouring.  Smells of caramel, molasses, brown sugar, bourbon, vanilla, oak, and toffee.

Tasting Notes:  Semi-sweet to sweet.  Low acidity and tartness.  No sourness, bitterness, funk, or tannins.  The scent notes continued into the flavor.  Medium to strong apple flavor.  Mild barrel influence.  Moderate bourbon influence.  Rich, bold, and full flavored.  Medium bodied.  Medium length warming finish.

My Opinion:  Yum!  However, its quite rich and caloric, so its something I’ll only drink one of.  However, that is perfect for a middle of the week treat.  It was especially tasty in a float with ice cream.  I really wish they wouldn’t add caramel color and flavoring though.

Most Similar to:  Not much…barrel aging programs at commercial cideries are pretty rare.  However, this reminds me somewhat of Woodchuck Winter Chill (oak & vanilla but not spirit flavor), Woodchuck 802 (rich caramelized sugar notes but its not barrel aged), Crispin 15 Men (rum barrel aged with honey notes), and Spire Mountain Dark & Dry (rich molasses & brown sugar notes but its not barrel aged).

Closing Notes:   Enjoying some Woodchuck Barrel Select is becoming an annual tradition for me.  I prefer Winter Chill though, and plan to stock up on that one (although probably not as much as last year, when I got a full case of four 6 packs).

Have you tried Woodchuck Barrel Select?  What did you think?

Portland Cider Company “Apple”

Review of Portland Cider Company’s canned cider dubbed “Apple”.

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Cider:  Apple
Cidery:  Portland Cider Company
Cidery Location:  Oregon City, Oregon (near Portland)
ABV:  5.5%
How Supplied:  four pack of 12oz cans
Style:  American craft canned cider made from dessert apples

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Availability:  OR & WA

Cider Description:  Medium-dry classic bursting with juicy crisp apple taste and a tart finish.

This cider was released in late 2015 for the first time, and I couldn’t find much information or a detailed description.

Cidery Description:  What do you do when you’re frustrated by the quality of the commercial cider available?  You start making your own!  What do you do when friends and family keep telling you it’s the best cider they’ve ever had?  You start a business!  That is the essence of how the Portland Cider Company got its start.  Founded by Jeff Parrish, an Oregon native, and his wife Lynda, an ex-patriot from the Somerset region of England (the Mecca of cider), the Portland Cider Company is based on the belief that good cider comes from good fruit, honest practices, and attention to detail. Our cider starts with fresh pressed juice from Northwest grown apples.  We then carefully ferment it using yeast that protects the delicate characteristics of the fruit.  The results are cider blends that are easy to drink, refreshing, and downright delicious.  Drink it, it’s good!

Portland Cider was started in 2012, and they have a taproom in the Portland area (with their ciders and some others).  They have four ciders available in 22oz bottles (Kinda Dry, Sorta Sweet, Hop’Rageous, and Pearfect Perry), plus Apple and Hop’Rageous in four packs of 12oz cans, and other ciders that are tap only.

Price:  ~$2.50 for a single can (runs around $8 for a four pack of 12oz cans)
Where Bought:  Total Wine
Where Drank:  home
How Found:  Browsing, although I had seen a release announcement on Facebook from them.

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First Impression:  Medium straw yellow.  Light carbonation upon pouring with large bubbles.  Smells of tart apples with a hint of honey.

Tasting Notes:  On the sweeter side of semi-dry.  Low acidity and tartness.  No sourness, bitterness, funk, or tannins.  I didn’t really pick up any other flavor notes besides apple, which was on the strong side.  No carbonation in the mouthfeel despite the visible bubbles.  Light bodied.  Quick finish.  Mildly flavored.  Highly sessionable.

My Opinion:  I enjoyed how much apple flavor this had without the apple juice type flavor that is common with sweeter commercial ciders which backsweeten.  I also liked that although it was light bodied and mildly flavored, it didn’t have a watered down tasting flavor.

Most Similar to:  Other semi-dry apple-forward flagship craft ciders, such as Jester & Judge American Apple.  However, although they are quite similar, I enjoyed this cider more.

Closing Notes:   This is a great basic cider option for folks who want a canned craft cider, but I prefer more flavor and complexity.

Have you tried Portland Cider Company ciders?  What did you think?

Schilling Cider House Visit 9 Tasting Notes

Tasting notes from my ninth visit to the Schilling Cider House in the Fremont neighborhood of Seattle WA.  Check out my past posts here.  I hadn’t thought I’d have time for another visit in December, but managed to fit it into my schedule.

I was there for a Finnriver Bingo event, although I didn’t have much interest in the actual game & prizes, just used it as an excuse to go.  The event was a packed house!  There were six Finnriver ciders on tap:  Habanero, Black Currant, Barrel in the Forest, Cranberry Rosehip, Fresh Hopped, and Pear (all of which I’ve had except Fresh Hopped).

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<tap list of 32 ciders>

I started with a flight of six ciders.

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<left to right: Blue Mountain Estate Winesap, Seattle Cider Oaked Maple, Finnriver Barrel in the Forest, Locust Pumpkin, E.Z. Orchards Semi-Dry, Grizzly Pomnivore>

Blue Mountain Estate Winesap, 6.75% ABV, Milton-Freewater OR:  This is a single varietal made with Winesap apples which Blue Mountain sells year round.  Nearly clear.  Tart, dry, and slightly funky smell.  Dry to semi-dry.  Moderate tartness and acidity.  Mild bitterness.  Very mild tannins.  Hint of funk.  Slight floral and oak notes.  Light bodied.  Moderate to long finish.  I thought this was a basic dry & tart cider, and pretty low on flavor.

Seattle Cider Oaked Maple, 6.9% ABV, Seattle WA:  This is one of Seattle Cider’s winter seasonals (they also did a Cranberry cider this year).  I couldn’t remember if I had tried this before, but I’m leaning towards yes.  Dark straw yellow hue.  Smells of sweet maple and oak.  Semi-dry.  Moderate acidity.  Mild tartness.  Light bodied.  Very light oak and light maple flavor.  Quick finish.  I thought this was pretty good, but I would have liked more flavor.

Finnriver Barrel in the Forest, 6.5% ABV, Chimacum WA:  This is a limited release of a barrel aged version of Finnriver’s Forest Ginger cider (which I haven’t tried).  I usually don’t like ginger, but this sounded interesting.  Smells of sweet ginger.  Semi-sweet.  Light oak notes.  Very mild ginger notes, much less than most ginger ciders (which usually seem to hit me at the back of the throat and linger).  Low acidity, tartness, and bitterness.  Light bodied.  Moderate length finish.  The ginger flavor however increased as it warmed up.  This paired well with the Thai food I had for dinner.  Overall I didn’t mind this one, despite the ginger, but probably wouldn’t get it again.

Locust Ciderworks Pumpkin, 5.0% ABV, Woodinville WA:  This is a seasonal release from Locust, apparently draft-only.  Hazy pumpkin orange-yellow hue.  Smells of sweet pumpkin spice.  Very sweet.  Mild pumpkin and spice flavors, but overall very full flavored.  Low acidity and tartness.  Full bodied.  Moderate length finish.  I really liked this (even though I usually don’t go for pumpkin or spice), except it was too sweet for my liking, so not something I could have a pint of.

E.Z. Orchards Semi-Dry, 6.9% ABV, Salem OR:  This is a regular release cider from E.Z. Orchards which uses French bittersweet apples.  After ordering this I remembered I had tried it before, at Cider Summit Seattle 2015.  Light amber.  Smells slightly rich.  Semi-dry.  Herbal notes.  Very light boded.  Low tannins and tartness.  Low to moderate acidity.  Quick finish.  Overall mildly flavored.  It tasted a bit off, and I wondered if the tap line could have used more flushing.  I also liked it much better at Cider Summit.  Different batches can turn out much differently.

Grizzly Ciderworks Pomnivore on Nitro, 6.7% ABV, Woodinville WA:  This is a tap-only release from Grizzly.  Light ruby red.  On the drier side of semi-sweet.  Low acidity and tartness.  Moderately flavored.  Quick finish.  I liked the pomegranate flavor without too much tartness like many pomegranate ciders have.

I met Nathan from Cider Chronicles (we just happened to sit next to each other at the bar!), who was awesome enough to share bottle pours of a couple ciders with me.  He said Sea Cider Wassail, J.K.’s Scrumpy Winterruption, and Elemental Seasonal Spiced Apple were his three favorite seasonal ciders, although Reverend Nat’s Winter Abbey Spiced may be replacing J.K.’s Scrumpy Winterruption in his cue.  I haven’t seen Rev Nat’s Winter Abbey, but picked up a bottle of Elemental Spiced, and tried the other two.

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Sea Cider Wassail, 14% ABV, Saanichton BC Canada:  This is Sea Cider’s winter seasonal.  Rich amber-orange hue.  Smells like orange and holiday spices.  Semi-dry.  Well-hidden ABV!  Low acidity, tartness, and bitterness.  The orange and spice notes continued into the flavor.  Rich and full-flavored.  Medium bodied.  Moderate length finish with lots of heat.  I liked this a bit more as it warmed up from fridge temperature.  Overall this was enjoyable, but I like their Prohibition best.

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J.K.’s Scrumpy Cuvee Winterruption, 6.9% ABV, Flushing MI:  This is J.K. Scrumpy’s winter seasonal.  Very sweet.  Honey, orange, and mild spice notes.  Mild acidity and tartness.  Moderate to full bodied.  Apparently this cider usually has much more spice.  It was very easy drinking, between the sweetness and low ABV.  Overall I found it ok.

Stay tuned for more Schilling Cider House tasting notes here at Cider Says!  Have you had any good draft cider / cider flights recently?

Dan Kelly’s Irish Cider

Review of Dan Kelly’s Irish Cider.  This is the second Irish cider I’ve tried (the first was Cragie’s Ballyhook Flier, plus I’ve also tried Dublin’s Pub, a Canadian Irish-style cider).

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Cider:  Cider
Cidery:  Dan Kelly’s
Cidery Location:  Drogheda Ireland
ABV:  4.5%
How Supplied:  500ml bottle
Style:  Irish craft cider

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None of the sub-pages of their website worked, including the one to contact them, so I couldn’t find much info straight from the source.

Availability:  Unknown, but it appears they have at least limited distribution in the U.S., plus in Ireland and Germany

Cider Description:  Dan Kelly’s Irish cider is crisp blend of cider apples with Bramley and dessert fruit using hand-picked apples from our own family orchard. These combinations give our craft cider a refreshing, crisp and extremely flavoursome finish every time.

Aged at least a year (I assume in a tank, as they didn’t mention barrels).  Fermented with wild yeast (which is rare, as typically ciders will add a predictable known yeast strain rather than rely on the yeast from the apples & environment).

Cidery Description:  Dan Kelly’s Cider is a new Irish cider made from hand picked apples from our very own family orchard. We are one of the only cider producers in Ireland to grow our own fruit. Our apples are blended to ensure the full fruit flavour comes through in our craft cider.

Price:  ~$9
Where Bought:  Special Brews in Lynnwood WA
Where Drank:  home
How Found:  Browsing

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First Impression:  Light amber-orange.  Low carbonation.  Smells dry, funky, and of oak.

Tasting Notes:  Between semi-dry and semi-sweet.  Low tannins, acidity, tartness, and bitterness.  Slight funk.  Moderate apple flavor.  Medium bodied.  Notes of oak and herbalness.  Moderate length finish.  Moderate sessionability.

My Opinion:  I thought this one was ok.  My main issue was a slightly off flavor I detected that I didn’t enjoy, likely from wild yeast fermentation (which is what can cause a cider to taste a bit funky).

Most Similar to:  English cider, although this one had a bit of unique flavor I assume is from the wild yeast.

Closing Notes:   I think I prefer English cider to Irish cider so far.  For a dollar or two less I can get an English cider I really enjoy, such as from Aspall or Sheppy’s.

Have you tried Dan Kelly’s cider?  What did you think?

Finnriver Fire Barrel

Review of Finnriver Fire Barrel.   I’ve tried probably 10 other Finnriver ciders.  Here is a great illustrated Finnriver product guide.

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Cider:  Fire Barrel
Cidery:  Finnriver
Cidery Location:  Chimacum WA
ABV:  6.5%
How Supplied:  500ml bottle

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Availability:  Limited release.  Finnriver ciders are sold in WA, OR, CA, AZ, NV, TX, IL, CO, and Alberta & BC Canada (detailed info here).  They also have an online store (which can ship to WA, OR, CA, AK, CO, MN, FL, & WA D.C.)

Cider Description:  Finnriver is honored to present master cidermaker Drew Zimemrman’s award-winning Fire Barrel cider.  Pressed from traditional bittersweet apples and aged in fire charred Kentucky bourbon barrels, this full-flavored cider offers a hint of whiskey, oak aroma, notes of caramel and vanilla, a lingering soft tannin finish.
  Drew’s passion for cider helped ignite the cider renaissance in the Pacific Northwest and now, here at Finnriver, we are grateful for his mentorship as we strive to carry on a rooted cider tradition.  Made with a seasonal blend of heirloom and traditional cider apples.

The label has “814” handwritten after “Bottled:”…it looks like this may indicate a bottling date of August 2014, although I only bought this a few months ago.

Cidery Description:  At Finnriver we gather and ferment the flavors of the land to offer you farmcrafted hard ciders and spirited fruit wines. We are inspired by the allure of the fruit, the ancient history of the craft of fermentation and the lively traditions we now seek to revive.  Our mission is to inspire a deeper connection to the land that sustains us….Some of these ciders are small-batch, seasonal and labor-intensive. Others are produced with contemporary methods and more readily available year-round…Finnriver grows over twenty varieties of traditional and heirloom apples in our organic orchard, to feature in our traditional and specialty ciders.  They have a tasting room open seven days a week, noon to 5pm, and are on the Olympic Pennsylvania cider route along with Eaglemount and Alpenfire cideries.

Price:  $11?
Where Bought:  Special Brews in Lynnwood WA
Where Drank:  home
How Found:  Browsing.  I tried this a couple years ago and didn’t like it oddly enough.  Then I had it again at a Capitol Cider tasting with Bill Bradshaw and nine WA cideries (notes here) and really enjoyed it.  I imagine my tastes had changed since the first time I tried it, as then although I enjoyed barrel aged, I wasn’t into higher tannin ciders.  I had actually bought the bottle before the tasting, as I wanted to give it another try now that this type of cider is my favorite.

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First Impression:  Orange-amber hue.  A few large bubbles at the edge of the glass but otherwise still.  Smells like ripe apples, tannins, oak, vanilla, spice, and rum?.

Opinion:  Semi-dry.  Ripe apple, caramelized sugar, bourbon, oak, earth, smoke, and vanilla notes.  Lovely bittersweet apple flavor.  Although I picked up rum oddly enough in the scent (probably as I got a hint of spice), the flavor is more bourbon/whiskey, and I don’t pick up any spice.  Moderate to heavy tannins.  Low acidity.  Low bitterness.  Low tartness.  Very light funk (more earthiness than anything else).  Mild to moderate barrel influence.  Mild to moderate spirit influence.  Pretty much still (no carbonation).  Medium bodied.  Moderate to long finish.  It start off with the tannins, then mellows out quite a bit.

Most Similar to:  Other tannin-forward ciders.  This reminds me of English style cider, but there is the added nice barrel & spirit flavor.

Closing Notes:   Awesome!  I really enjoyed this cider–one of my favorites, and definitely my kind of cider.  Bold and unique.  It definitely isn’t an introductory type cider (although still less harsh than for example Sea Cider Prohibition / Rumrunner and Alpenfire Smoke, which I also really enjoy), but is a great example of what can be made when you use cider apples and barrel age.

Have you tried Finnriver Fire Barrel?  What did you think?

2 Towns The Bad Apple

Review of The Bad Apple from 2 Towns.  I’ve had this cider before, and many other 2 Towns varieties.  Isn’t their bottle styling awesome?  Really eye-catching.

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Cider:  The Bad Apple
Cidery:  2 Towns
Cidery Location:  Corvallis OR
ABV:  10.5%
How Supplied:  500ml bottle (or kegs)

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Availability:  Year-round, at least in OR, WA, CA, AK, HI, NV (limited), ID, IL (Chicago), & MN (Minneapolis)

Cider Description:  Big & bold, The Bad Apple is an imperial style cider, fermented with local meadowfoam honey and aged on Oregon White Oak. Complex notes of apples and wood make the Bad Apple a NW favorite. Sometimes…it’s good to be Bad!

Cidery Description:  2 Towns was founded in 2010 by partners Lee Larsen and Aaron Sarnoff. Dave Takush joined us shortly thereafter. All three of us grew up together in the Corvallis, OR area. We’ve had explosive growth since our inception at which point we had intended to produce and distribute cider to the Corvallis, OR and Eugene, OR areas only (incidentally, the 2 Towns of our namesake). It became readily apparent that our initial vision needed to grow as we hit our maximum capacity in our first production space (a converted 1,000 sq ft garage) in roughly 2 months. We’ve since built 2 new production facilities with a total of 25,000 sq ft of production space and our team has grown to over 30 people to help us to distribute to 9 states and counting.

Over this time, we’ve kept to our original goal of bringing craft hard cider back to the people. We feel that a craft cider is made with fresh-pressed fruit and contain no artificial flavorings. Our fruit is all sourced in Oregon & Washington and all of our ciders are also free from added sugars other than those present in the juice and in some cases local honey. We feel that cider doesn’t need to be sweet to express the natural flavors of the fruits we ferment.

2 Towns Ciderhouse planted an orchard in 2011 with all traditional cider apple varieties such as Kingston Black, Dabinett, Jersey Brown Snout, and many others. 2 Towns has also contracted with several growers in the Willamette Valley and beyond to grow additional traditional cider fruit.

Price:  $7.50
Where Bought:  Special Brews in Lynnwood WA
Where Drank:  home
How Found:  Initially, browsing.  I’ve had this cider at least once before and was in the mood to have another bottle.

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First Impression:  Yellow/orange tinted straw gold hue.  Moderate carbonation upon pouring with a light foam ring and tiny bubbles.  Smells like rich apples, honey, booze (whisky?), yeast, and oak.

Opinion:  Semi-dry.  Quite apple-forward, with rich apple, honey, vanilla, and oak notes.  The perceived barrel influence remains mild.  Moderate acidity and tartness.  I almost pick up some citrus with the tartness.  Mild bitterness and astringency.  No sourness or funk.  Medium bodied.  Low to moderate carbonation.  Longer finish with lingering tartness and acidity.  Well-hidden ABV, which mostly presents as warmth.  Complex but simple at the same time.  I enjoyed this fridge cold, which surprised me as usually with this style of cider I like it closer to room temperature than fridge temperature…when it warmed up the tartness seemed more present.

Most Similar to:  This kinda reminds me of Moonlight Meadery ‘How Do You Like Them Little Apples’ cider for some reason…probably as that one tasted like it was higher ABV (but wasn’t), and had honey and oak notes (but it was sweeter and more full bodied).  By the way, I find this cider very different from the other 2 Towns Imperial-Style cider I’ve tried, Serious Scrump, which is an 11% ABV English-Style cider available seasonally, which I found to be quite dry and bitter and not to my liking.

Closing Notes:   Awesome!  This is actually my favorite cider from their regular line so far (and I’ve tried at least 10 ciders from 2 Towns).  I think its a great value.  I also think 2 Towns is a really cool cidery in general…really down to earth and fun-loving.  Their tag line is “Damn Fine Cider” lol.  I hope to visit them someday in Corvallis OR.  I’ve actually met co-founder Aaron Sarnroff-Wood (at Cider Summit Seattle 2015 and a Schilling Cider House 2 Towns tasting event) and communicated with him by e-mail about their Cider Master Reserve Batch No 01, and he is super helpful.  I highly recommend this cider if you enjoy higher-ABV ciders and want something unique.

Have you tried any ciders from 2 Towns?  What did you think?